And here it is!
DICE 105
A very interesting chapter, I hope you agree.
Please remember to support the author by paying a visit to the original at Naver.
The dilettantes at LINE could do with a peek, too. (Given what they do to the art there at the official English version site, a peek is more than they deserve.)
Eunju has a point.
ReplyDelete... she is about the only person to have a point in this whole mess. A lot of points, actually.
DeleteShe has a point... this time. Of course, someone could've thought about not having one of the team would invalidate the quest, but another quest would show, and could possibly be about wreaking havoc on the school, since no one showed interest on defending it.
DeleteAnd again, her instance against dice is foolish. There's probably something sad about her past, but again people like Mio and Dongtae had miserable lifes before dice showed up. And like any other form of power in the world, it depends the user to make things better or worse.
Sadly, Dongtae do some really stupid things. So it's still far from dice being considered good. Maybe if him or Mio (or maybe Eunjoo, if she becomes a dicer) could overthrow X and change the world, they could try to make it a better place. Before that, as there's always someone at the top, there'll be someone at the bottom. As it was with those weaker and uglier before, and as it is now with non-dicers.
Sigh... not this again.
DeleteFor (a synthetic version of) the reasons why Dice are intrinsically bad no matter what, please refer to comment #235 of the Mangahelpers thread on DICE.
For why the analogy to just any form of power is incorrect, and why the quest system is wrong, please refer to the discussion here at the post of chapter 72.
For why overthrowing X would solve nothing, please refer to the remainder of the discussion thread at Mangahelpers. (It's long, but no way around it.)
For why Eunju is neither a fool, nor retrograde, nor... ah, I give up, let's agree each to keep their own opinions.
Hey Splicer,
DeleteI think you are somewhat biased and overquick to jump to Eunjus (almost)defense. As I see it, implying that she might not be the non plus ultra concerning intelligence is very different to calling her a fool or some such and I do not think that this was the usual bashing.
And I do think that you are really somewhat biased (while being mostly right) with the assesment of the "good" guys. While you are right that Eunju is the most interesting character simply by her not following the Manga/Manwha standards of characters and her being more intelligent than the rest of the bunch, I do not see her as being better in a moral sense. Less stereotypical by far, but not better than Dongtae. I won´t concede that to her until we actually know her backstory, because at the moment she is still coming from a mostly privileged background while Dongtae started at the ugly and stupid end of the foodchain, taking shit all his life, and still struggles to do the right things all the time. Sometimes being to stupid to do them does not take away from the moral side of the act in my opinion. Again, his is a stereotypical situation and hers is actually interesting, but I do think that you have to take the history and psychological situation of people into account when judging their actions.
Anyway the true reason I write was to ask what you meant with your comment in the Mangahelpers thread as I see nothing in that post that would explain the inherent evilness of dice in the slightest and what the nod to the discussion under chapter 72 was about since the analogies hanging around there are completely different ones (and targeted at other things, not power) and only explain why X and his quests are evil. I think the analogies with other kinds of powers can fit quite well and I am not sold on why the Dice themselves should be evil in any way.
First time I write something here but I´m always following your remarks with interest ;-)
Best regard and thanks for all your work!
For reasons on why I believe we know enough about Eunju's past to give her the moral high ground, please refer to comment #180 at Mangahelpers.
DeleteAnd in any case, the point is moot. Moral stances must be taken at face value - what is said and done -, not what led the person who holds such opinions to develop them. People with different pasts can come to similar conclusions, and people with the same past can come to different ones. Being a bully victim doesn't excuse Dongtae from being a fool. It may explain it, but doesn't justify it.
Dongtae is a decent person. I have never said his morality is wrong-headed. But it is wrong-footed: he doesn't back it up with serious reflection on the implications of his actions. Agreeing to X's prank quests resulted in Byungchul's being bullied, after all. And that is just one example.
So Eunju is morally superior because she thought things through while Dongtae is just following his nose, putting out fires here and there but never trying to see the bigger picture. A well-intentioned fool, but still a fool.
Eunju beats Dongtae anytime because she never failed to see what he never saw. She has drawn every single correct conclusion in this series, just like that, at first sight and on first being confronted with each dilemma.
Well, I don't think I can articulate my opinion on Dice much better than that comment without copying and pasting walls and walls of text from several places, but…
Let's try this analogy: saying that Dice can be good just because Mio, Dongtae and so far two other people have benefitted from them is the same as saying that we ought to allow wide distribution of metamphetamines just because Hungarian mathematician Paul Erdös used them to enhance his creativity in old age. In other words, Dongtae and the other two are the exceptions that prove the rule, i.e., that most people have become corrupted by Dice.
And that transcends quests: if you look at Dongtae's confrontation with the B-Rankers when he was protecting Hyunjo, most of them have become dependent on Dice to solve all their problems. Which is exactly what would happen in real life if something like Dice existed.
I've explained in that post (briefly, because I've elaborated on the matter in other posts) that Dice represent power without effort and thus come at no moral cost (no, quests do not count as "effort" in the face of the disproportionate power Dice represent). They erase any possibility of truly improving oneself in a virtuous way. That's argument (i).
Saying that power depends on the user generalises the nature of power. "Power" can be the ability to perform cardiac surgery, to operate a Kalashnikov, to design a neutron bomb, to sway public opinion and to concoct LSD. Not all of them have generated equal amounts of bad or good, and not all of them can have their existence justified on grounds of being simply tools of "power". This series is about more than power: it is about the Faustian bargain, "beware of what you wish for", indulging one's dark desires, etc. etc.
And quite frankly, I'm not even sure that Mio, Dongtae and Taebin's lives have improved, unless you count as improvement replacing being beaten up by beating others up. I am yet to see something constructive in life from Dongtae: so far he has a mixed record at best. To begin with, he is yet to find one true friend who won't betray him for Dice, or to have one day without having to protect someone or something. Sure, he may have made that speech to Mio on chapter 80, but in retrospect that sounds more wishful thinking than a cool assessment of reality. If you want my opinion, Taebin's assessment that the world is equally bleak with or without Dice (chapter 67) is much more accurate than Dongtae's. Dice do nothing other than magnify that bleakness.
(continues)
(continued)
Delete(As for Taebin, he has become a cynic fugitive from his past who cannot trust anyone's feelings as genuine. And Mio… the jury is still out on her case, but her insecurities and self-image problems don't seem to have changed much yet.)
Isn't Dongtae still desperately clinging to the far-fetched notion that X is the only thing that needs correction? Why, if Dice are generated by desire, and someone has to control their distribution, re-read my third argument on comment #235 and tell me what is wrong with it. The corollary is that there is no one who could replace X in a "fair" setting. So there is no way Dice can contribute positively to humankind, since they will only intensify the already existing trends.
Sure, if Dice were distributed equally to all people at no cost, that would be a different thing… and a different plot, a different premise, comparing apples to oranges. I am talking about Dice as they exist in this series: they are the currency of individual desire. Frankly, I don't like the outcome so far.
This is not to say that I would like everything to return to how it was before when the series ends. I believe there should be some poetic justice to Dongtae, Mio and Taebin: for their travails, they should be rewarded with retaining their improved bodies in the end. After all, not being corrupted by Dice is almost as praiseworthy as not succumbing to them in the first place (Eunju). But that is the limit of the good Dice can make, and they should be ultimately destroyed.
I am sorry if I sound vague, but the fact is that I have been trying my best not to repeat myself. I have written far too much on these topics and don't feel like doing it again.
Well not having a profile and thus posting Anonymous does have its drawbacks.
DeleteAnyway, after losing hours of my learning time to reading the last two pages of the thread on Mangahelpers I retract some of my earlier statements. First I realized that the tiny things on thop of the posts (shame on me) hid pretty long texts. Thus my question about where your explanation why Dice are evil is, is solved. I still think differently of this: I do agree that in the current circumstances the Dice do lead to bad things inevitably. That does not make the power itself evil but the ways and conditions of distributing said power. I also do not think that the term power corrupts holds true. Power tempts like any drug, but that does not mean that you can not withstand that temptation (and for some drugs - to which I would count power - you can consume them without getting addicted).
Second I still think you are slightly biased on everything concerning Eunju, especially concerning perceived attacks against her, but I can now understand more of where you are coming from and why from your point of view everything is easier seen as an offence. (Up to this point I never read any threads save for this sites comment section.)
One thing you mentioned in that long discussion was the point that Eunju was the only one not being tainted because everyone else picked up Dice willingly while she refused. I believe that to be an empty argument: Dongtae for example became a dicer by accident (a Dice falling out of his hand while fighting with Taebin) without knowing anything about Dice while Eunju decided against it after knowing a whole lot about them. I do not think that this can be fairly taken into account in a moral judgement of the situation. (Just a minor thing, but it caught my attention.)
Power only not corrupts when it is checked. And the checks are always external. In essence, so long as you don't violate the Platinum Rule (and preferably not the Golden one too), using power is up to you. But that is not what happens normally, because the more one expands one's own sphere of power, the sooner it hits another's sphere.
DeleteThe cardiac surgeon is subject to medical procedure oversight. The Kalashnikov rifle user is checked (or should be) by the rules of war. Etc etc.
And Dice? What check is possible on them? Especially the S-Rank Die, but all of them?
Dice are a metaphor - I repeat myself again - for unchecked power and for solving one's problems without effort. Exactly the opposite of what Eunju strives for.
This is not an abstract discussion on the nature of power, but on the nature of the kind of power that allows one to undo the normal restraints imposed by society. But because life in society is a condition to life "tout court", loosening those restraints is inevitably evil.
"From your point of view everything is easier seen as an offence"… I am slightly insulted, but I don't think you meant it. I actually didn't say "not again" in the first comment because I thought it was typical Eunju-bashing, but because it was an argument I had seen countless times before and thought it had been already safely disposed of. The mere thought of someone still seeing Dice as benign or neutral after what we have seen was quite shocking to me, honestly speaking. I don't choose an "easy" interpretation that will write everything off as an insult: if I did, I wouldn't be engaging you in conversation, would I?
As for your third paragraph, I actually discussed it extensively in an old post in Mangahelpers the number of which escapes me now, sorry. However, the very fact that one can become a Dicer by accident, or against one's will, and it is irrevocable should be enough to characterise them as negative entities in that they deny users agency and decision. But never mind that.
What Dongtae ought to have done is taking the opposite route on chapter five: he ought to have refused to pursue any quest from the outset. At the very latest, the moment a quest popped up that could have untoward consequences (stealing Byungchul's answer sheets, again), he ought to have ceased his association with X and ignored him completely. But he never reflected. He never gave it a second thought. Do you really think if Eunju had become a Dicer by accident she would have agreed to a morally grey quest or a quest the consequences of which she could not foresee? You surely read my arguments about the gradation of evil in quests, didn't you? Well, I'm all for washing the gym uniforms of a girl, but can we really exempt Dongtae of fault just because he stopped at pranks and avoided the outright vicious quests?
As you probably realized: My last post was written without having seen your reply.
DeleteTo your first post:
Well I think you mix up two very different things here. First being a fool is not about moral but about intellect and reflection (being a bully victim has (excluding lasting damage to the brain) nothing to do with you being a fool. It would have to do with you developing some nasty personality traits, something entirely different). Lacking both leads Dongtae to his many errors. But to demand ultimate moral is rather harsh. Most people do have a more or less constricted ability for reflection (sometimes even furthered through their life circumstances) and thus do not have the same ability for finding the best courses of action on their own. Therefore I do believe that it is important to judge a person by taking their various circumstances into account. This does not apply to the judgement of the actions them self (a well meant action can still be evil) but it does mean that a person can be “good” on the inside without following the perfect path. And this is what I believe to be true about Dongtae.
About the improvement I would argue that at least for the current situation of Dongtae and Mio there can be seen some improvements in the practical and quality of life sense but those are rather shallow.
To your second one:
I´m sorry about that, I really thought the “not this again” was about the Eunju bashing.
Not having read your post I somewhat missed the point you wanted to make about the power of Dice in my last post and made the empty attempt at extracting the power of Dice from the setting of this series which does not make much sense in the current discussion. I´m with you on that one.
For the last part: While you are right about Dongtaes choice not being the best I still hold to it that he at this point had no clue about the destructive power of Dice and only followed the quests he saw as harmless. As I said above I believe the circumstances have to be taken into consideration. From the things he could see at this point this was an easy way out of his problems without any drawbacks (the only reason I would believe to be credible enough at this point would be to see the evil that comes from Dice which is obviously impossible. And clearly Dongtae is not your intellectual fellow to even look for the small point that your reasoning about checks would make). But as you said yourself: Even a hundred chapters later he still struggles with that particular realization). Eunju´s situation when she refused the Dice is completely different as she can at that point already see and understand the impact of Dice. I consider her choice at this point a lot easier provided that it is made by a person wanting to do the right thing.
Well I should have gone to sleep four hours prior so I´m doing that now. I will probably sign up at Mangahelpers since this is not exactly the most comfortable way to make such discussions.
Hmm…
DeleteRemoving morality out of the intellectual context is a bit of hair-splitting, in my view. As I said before, I have never condemned Dongtae morally: I am just saying that his morality is not backed up by good sense, and thus inferior to Eunju's because hers is.
And while I agree that most people do not live up to her standards, that is all the more reason for us to admire her, right? Yes, Dongtae is more "human" in the sense that he is more fallible than she is (and she has made a couple of errors of judgement in the series, but always apologised and made amends once she realised her mistake), in that we are on the same page.
As for your discussion on extenuating circumstances for Dongtae, I had a short discussion with Jammin at Mangahelpers a long time ago precisely about that, and articulating similar notions. Yes, it is true that Dongtae and Eunju have had to make their choices regarding Dice with different information and under different circumstances. However, I'd say that X has gone the extra mile to tempt Eunju into accepting Dice, offering her all sorts of advantages and specious promises, including achieving what he says is her dearest desire: to destroy him. And yet she has time and again turned him down. So while she had more information, he has tried to ensnare her much more aggressively than he did Dongtae, who didn't need much temptation to bite the bait, hook, line and sinker. There were several moments in the story when becoming a Dicer could have helped her, and yet she refused.
This latest chapter is proof that at the very least, even the "virtuous" Dicers like Dongtae and Mio have internalised the Dice system to the extent that they never consider that every move they do following the terms of a Quest plays into X's hands. They simply move as the quest requires them to, in the manner of chess pieces. Mio needed Eunju to become aware of that.
I don't have much to add to the discussion but, is Dongtae that stereotypical of a main character? (as an Anonymous mentioned). I haven't read many stories like this so maybe he is, but I was under the impression that a cliche character would think like this "I gotta fight to defeat X and put an end to this dice madness". Dongtae, on the other hand, is contradicting himself but he hasn't really stopped to think about it yet. He wants a world with dice but without X, which seems impossible to me. In fact I don't think there's a character like the one I mentioned yet. Eunju is like "X is evil, and I wish dice didn't exist, but fighting for that is bad too". Mio, with what Eunju told her this chapter is more convinced that X is the problem and with that in mind she is closer to Dongtae in her line of thoughts. We don't know about Taebin since his only goal seems to be defeating Mooyoung.
Delete@Zoofranz:
DeleteI agree with your assessment of Dongtae, but I see Eunju a little differently: I don't think she doesn't want to fight, she just doesn't want to fight as a Dicer because that would mean submitting herself to X's rules, which is abhorrent to her. Just like Dongtae and everyone else, she is currently powerless to oppose X directly, but she has said in the Taebin (Mooyoung) Arc that she would definitely stop him. If she finds a way to fight, my guess is that she will or at least will help Dongtae to do it. (He is the hero, after all.)
I was somewhat unclear on the point about Dongtae: One reason why I believe Dice to be such a great series is that even the most stereotypical characters have more depth than the special ones in most other Manga/Manwha. That being said what I meant with Dongtae being a stereotype is that he comes from a shitty background, with not much good ever happening to him and he still tries to do the right thing all the time, to protect the people around him, etc. But since Dice is so well written, even this is pulled of in a more believable fashion and filled with life and other sides to his character. It would probably more fitting to say that Dongtaes setting is a typical stereotype (again especially for Manga/Manwha).
DeleteThanks for answering me pointing to references to back your opinions. Although I dont have the time to read right now (not even the rest of the comments here), I'll try to read it later. For now, I'll agree with you to disagree.
DeleteAnd thanks again for all the work you guys are doing to bring DICE to us.
@Anonymous
DeleteYeah I agree on that, his "loser" background is a stereotype for MC's but thanks to that our hero has that inner contradiction that makes the story very unpredictable. That's why I like Dongtae and why Mio is my favourite character. I could imagine Dongtae somehow acepting how things are and going back to his state before dice (after some long reflections) but I seriously doubt that Mio will acept that. She's beginning to understand that X has to be stopped, but as I said before somewhere (probably reddit) Mio would rather die than going back to her old self, so as long as she remains alive we can expect some crazy plot twist coming from her (ps: I've just re-read chapter 59-60, most lovely one if you ask me, from the official translation, and Mio literally says "Thanks God dice exist" lol)
@Splicer
My bad. I totally forgot that line. I wonder if they can find another way of fighting X other than getting the last die, because I don't think Eunju would like to help Dongtae if he decides to play X's game and defeat other dicers
When teacher Kim puked I thought for one second that it was because cloaking guy had punched him in the stomach.
ReplyDeletei have a feeling the hooded guy maybe one of taebin's ex-friends who was supposedly killed by moonyoung.....can't wait to see who it is!
ReplyDeleteSqueals* Read the raws! And the answer shall ve revealed!
Deleteread the new chapter...my guess was bang on!
Delete