This week's raw of the DICE chapter is suspended. I have no idea whether the little "휴재" sign appliesfor this week's chapter, or for future ones as well. I'll see if the author has a blog and update the post if I learn something new.
Sigh... and I keep saying this is not a ToG discussion forum... one cannot even make a jocular comment and the anti-Rachel brigade pounces...
Look, I love the character Rachel. It's not a person.
I fully understand that she is (in all likelihood) a villain. However, to me she is (by a far, far margin) the most interesting character in Tower of God. I enjoy reading about her schemes, trying to guess her motivations, how she seems to draw strong allies to her apparently without effort and how she always seems to be one step ahead of Baam.
ToG wouldn't be the first case of a series in which the most interesting character is not a white hat, so what's the problem with liking Rachel?
In my opinion (not that it matters), Rachel knew all the time that Baam would survive being thrown off the submarine. Frankly, I consider most of her actions in perfect agreement with usual practices inside the Tower. That Zahard princess everyone likes killed more allies in the floor of test than Rachel did in the entire tower, incidentally. Her backstabbing of Koon was perfectly justified given that she knew Koon wanted to, in his words, "abandon her in her direst need". Tough luck that she made her move first. From the moment the rest of his team agreed to that, all became fair game to her. I would have considered it self-defence even if she killed everyone.
All in all, I don't like ToG much. It's an okay series, but the only moments I really enjoy are when Rachel is in action. The only plot that interests me is the mystery around her, Baam and Headon. Everything else plays as a vague blur in the background. I get some comic relief from Anak Zahard, but that's all. I don't even bother to learn the other characters' names.
And frankly, any rational person would have gotten the message by now, but Baam insists in chasing her. That's a bit pathetic, even disgusting, in my opinion. What the heck does he want? An explanation? She gave one in the prologue! Move on, man, you have friends, girls are taking numbers to date you, her goal is not incompatible with any of your allies'...
The only reason they are even fighting is that they are trying to get in her way for no discernible reason other than petty revenge for wrongs that are pretty much self-inflicted.
Baam should just let her chase the stars and go find his happiness elsewhere. Grow up, kid!
you don't need to answer everytime someone asks, just direct them to a previous discussion, or just say you like her character and it makes the story interesting or something, cuz if you take it seriously or personally everytime someone asks you, it's just going to depress you imo, just saying and btw i do agree she's an interesting character too, not sure if i should despise her or not, cuz her motives are not very clear yet, although if the author decide's to make her "the character who was forced to do bad things while having pure heart"... it's gonna be disappointing, i want her to be a full time villain not a part time, i have a similar opinion on eunju as well.
Don't worry, I normally don't answer. However, since it is the second or third time someone asks and I haven't answered it in this blog yet, I decided to give a full answer.
And you are right, I need to stop taking this seriously. The problem is that I can spend a whole night discussing anything, but in the case of Rachel (and Eunju), my feeling is that no one is really willing to read a different point of view. Most people have knee-jerk "Eunju that filthy hipocrite" or "Rachel that ugly bitch" reactions that I find disappointing. Especially in the case of DICE, which I consider a great moral tale with lots of food for thought.
I have stated my cases on Rachel and Eunju long ago, and I know I am a minority opinion holder. I'm not alone, though, there are some rare people who have reached similar conclusions out there, meaning I'm probably not a loony.
Just out of curiosity, when you say "I have a similar opinion of Eunju", do you mean you also want her to become a villain? 'Cause if that's the case, we differ quite a lot in regards to her.
(As far as Rachel is concerned, I don't consider ToG a full-fledged moral tale, its morality is very poorly-defined, and I don't think the things she has been doing are all that bad relative to everyone else. The only reason she is - probably - a villain is because everyone who is supposed to be a hero is trying to stop her for reasons that are quite weak on closer inspection.)
you're not alone in that opinion, that's for sure.
when i said "i have a similar opinion of eunju", i tend to be not very clear sometimes, sorry for that,, what i meant is, that i wanted her to turn to the character that does what everyone else is afraid of (aka destroying dice). and so in the process (in the eyes of other dicers) she will seem like a villain, which in reality, she isn't, she is actually destroying something "evil", because humans aren't supposed to get what they always want, as that will turn them into basically "evil" creatures (as how the dicers almost lost all their morality, and just care about getting more dice).
all in all, i want her to be an important piece in the manhwa, mostly the "solving" piece, that maybe not all people view as a "hero" but more like a "villain",, and as they say, truth hurts, and the truth is: DICE did way more damage than good it did, but still dicers won't really agree with that, and will see her as the villain.
anyway i find that to be more interesting than her other possible paths.
as for Tog, that's true, it isn't very defined in the moral aspect, im not sure if that's just poor writing or the writer did that on purpose (would make it more interesting if that was intentional), although for rachel, i want her to be a real villain (well maybe not really a "villain" but someone around the lines of "i'll do anything to get what i want")
and just a note for something you said (absolutely no offense intended, just wanted to point something out). you said "Baam should just let her chase the stars and go find his happiness elsewhere. Grow up, kid!", i think that's true, but, you're kinda forgetting that baam only knew rachel for his whole life, and i think he's more around the lines "lost", because she was his whole life and suddenly she isn't,
I agree with you, it would be cool if Eunju accomplished that. I also agree about Rachel.
As for Baam, I was only half-serious when I said that. I understand that she meant to him even more than a mother would to a child, she was everything to him.
Still, one has to grow up eventually. Years have passed since he entered the Tower. He has grown stronger, found allies, developed his own reasons to fight, there are girls interested in him. He has people and things to protect now, as well as people who rely on him and would give their lives fighting alongside him. All of that should have already replaced Rachel's original role.
He is a full-fledged human being now, with his own concerns and emotions. Sticking to Rachel is the same as sticking to a past that is not coming back. There's absolutely no reason to chase after her: her goal is no threat to anyone other than those who stand in her way... and the same is true of anyone else's goal in the Tower.
It's actually clear from his actions that he doesn't even love her anymore (he recently referred to her as his "former friend"). If he is only after an explanation... then this is really stupid, I'm afraid. Write her a letter, dammit, I'm sure the guide girl, who is also from FUG, would be able to get it to her. He is risking his and other people's lives for an answer that Rachel gave him already in the prologue.
that is true, but still, not everyone can move on, and even when they do it's not a complete "move on" (moving on is extremely hard, and in reality most people don't actually succeed in it, and especially so if it's on the level of rachel for baam).
for "All of that should have already replaced Rachel's original role", i can't agree with that, it's like saying you no longer care for your original mother because you have friends or you achieved your dream job (i didn't say a stepmother because rachel and all the things baam has now do not play the same role) personally i think baam is very weak mentally, as the things the moves him are either finding rachel or protecting his friends, that kinda of points that baam is actually very lacking in personal will, and i think that means he needs her more than we think, because she is the only thing to fill his heart(apart from his friends/other goals, but i don't think they are at the same level in importance for him), that's just a personal opinion, could be wrong.
you said "It's actually clear from his actions that he doesn't even love her anymore", im not sure about that, because in the recent chapters when rachel was mentioned by his enemies, baam would lose his composure and make stupid actions just to find her, and i think that mean that he still cares about her to the amount where he would lose his cool/composure, tbh i completely forgot about the prologue before, i just read it again(assuming you were talking about the prologue of the whole series, not season 2), and i think writer was set on what to do from the start, as rachel said to baam "forget about me" (if this the answer you talked about, then baam already answered to it with >) and baam said "ill follow you until i die", btw rachel smirked a little before she disappeared, maybe that points that she is happy how much baam is ready to go for her, just maybe.
i do find how baam is set-on finding rachel kind of boring and disappointing, but i don't think it's completely unrealistic, as this shows how much he cares/cared about her, but it could also point that baam is not that good of a person as he prefers the option of him staying by her side to the option of her reaching her dream but without him,, also i really like "irreplaceable" relationships/people in any plot, kinda gives you fuzzy feeling (although maybe not that fuzzy in this story~)
sorry if anything didn't make sense (im quite bad at explaining what i mean in the i mean it) and sorry for the lengthy post, probably got bored if you read it heh
You're completely neglecting the emotional part of Baam, who lived we don't know how long alone in a dark cave without having seen anyone. Yes, if he were a robot, he could just do what is usefull and efficient. He's not. The person most important to him, the first human being he met, the person who was his sole spark of life in a world of darkness and void, tried to kill him. And he needs to know why. To have a real talk. He seeks understanding.
In this, the author of ToG is very good. His main character is very... human. And because he's a "full-fledged human being now", he needs his answer all the more.
In the prologue, I referred to her reasons for climbing the tower: "I'm sick of living like this in this dark world" and so on. He should have been able to deduce that she couldn't take him along (because the Tower only accepts those it chooses etc.).
Yes, she was happy that he was ready to go so far, it is a proof of his love, but by now it should be clear to him that she has chosen her goal instead of him.
And frankly, I'm pretty confident Headon forbade her from telling of their deal to anyone, so it's not as if meeting her will solve anything. And since Rachel is a liar even by Baam's own admission, why is he so ready to listen to what she might say? She may say anything, actually, and he will never be sure that it is the truth.
To the other anon:
What is hard to understand to me is that Baam is not only ready to risk himself, he is ready to risk other people's lives in pursuit of Rachel. His behaviour in the train town tournament was inexcusable. He saved everyone, granted, but he couldn't predict his success in advance.
And that has been his pattern of behaviour ever: it may be admirable, but frankly, what else does he need to know that she doesn't want to meet him, doesn't want him to climb the Tower with her, and will do whatever it takes to prevent their re-encounter? She told the blue-haired singer about how clingy Baam is, so it's even a conversation topic in their group.
And sure, he is not a robot, but as I said, years have passed now. How much longer does he need to realise his is a fool's errand? If he is emotionally handicapped by his past, that's the same as saying all of his allies, people who will kill and die for him, cannot fill the void left by Rachel. That's a poor return for those allies' loyalty, in my opinion.
Rachel is fine without him, and he knows it. She is ready to live with the consequences of her choices, but he refuses to accept the fact.
If he is ready to endanger his new life, full of everything he always craved (true friends), for the sake of "understanding" which is pretty much a pie in the sky, I'm afraid I can never support him.
Answers are important, but life is more. Baam should choose life, and let his heart fill the void with other things. What he cannot do is have his cake and eat it. I bet he hasn't even asked himself what he really thinks he will find out if he meets her.
My idea of a re-encounter would be when it didn't matter anymore. A casual encounter in a high floor, after both were Rankers, devoid of any interest. Then chances would be actually higher that Rachel would tell the truth and Baam would believe it.
In my view, the one who is actually struggling and suffering the consequences of her past decisions the most is Rachel. Baam is powerful, fears no one, has the trust of everyone around him, and can actually change the whole fate of the Tower. Even the hip-hop pervert has his eyes on him. Rachel is still weak, surrounded by people who are dodgy at best, needs to plan her every next step carefully or die in the hands of her enemies and has to cope with Baam's constant pursuit. And yet she seems okay with it, whereas Baam is the one throwing a tantrum.
i do agree with you, and i do agree that rachel is the one who suffers the most upon a closure look, and most people tend to forget about that. even so, have you ever met a situation which, even if you did whatever you could it still doesn't matter, but even so you did? i did, and i believe a lot of people did too. for baam i think he isn't "intentionally" putting his friends in danger, what i mean is, if you ask him: would you put your friends in danger to meet rachel?, he would anwer (as how i understood his personality) : NO! of course not!! but even so when the moment come's he will still put his friends in danger if that opens a window to meet rachel, he's not a hypocrite, but that's how most people deal with something as important as rachel to baam, they make stupid decisions and so on maybe mostly he doesn't really care about her answer or so, but just want to meet her
and remember that when people depend on something their whole life, and suddenly it disappears, they just can't go on without it, EVEN if there are things that fill that void
(purely just as an example) when the slaves were freed in america (im not really good with history so forgive me for not using names or/and mistakes), after a while they got back to their "owners", the reason why this happened is they just can't live without something that decided their whole life, even if they found a much better life elsewhere,
it's the like what people say, old habits die hard, and the case with baam is something much bigger than a habit,
he just can't go on without rachel, period.
that's it, really, rachel is something that need to exist in him, that's how i see it tbh. and as the other anon said, he's not a robot, because if he just moved on, that means rachel wasn't a part big enough of his life for him to risk all just for her, and i think the author made it clear that rachel is everything for baam from the start try to look from his perspective too, not just rachel,
Sorry if I got you upset with my question, and sorry if I made you go through all this trouble to explain your reasons.
Just to make me clear here, I was asking just to ( if confirmed it was from ToG ) make a joke that you usually likes the "most hated" characters of webtoons... So, I'm really sorry it caused you any troubles.
But, seeing your arguments, I would love to one day talk with you about your visions on these character and even other webtoons we may both read, so, if you participate in any forums ( and wouldn't mind me to join your discussions ) please let me know ! ^^
Oh, and as you can see, since chapter 50-something I always comment here with my Google ID, so if any anom annoyed you after my question, rest assured that it wasn't me ><
Just thought I'd point out that Eunju is my favorite because she's the only one who knows that the DICE power isn't worth the cost. Regardless of whether she didn't like our daring protagonist
@aka Kensei -> I kept myself from joking about how Splicer love for "most hated characters" probably is just a way to be different than others people. :p (it's not, I know, but that would have been easy to say !) So I understand why you made that joke xD
I agree with Anon 1:57. We need to see things from both points of view. I understand Rachel for being annoyed that Baam clings to her (what I don't understand is what she did to Dan, the fast guy... just pure cruelty and madness, which is the main thing that makes me think this girl is a real vilain, like the crazy kind of vilain), but I also understand Baam for needing an answer, a discussion, an understanding. I don't really have more to say than what Anon 1;57, he perfectly understood what I said about Baam not being a robot.
In matters of love (and not only the romantic one), of feelings, you can't expect people to act with logic and to replace things with others. People don't have the same value, the same place, in our heart. A friend won't replace another friend. He (or she) will just be another friend, different. You're comparing his relationship with the first living being he met, his first contact with life, with a cake, a whim. That makes no sense. They're on totally different scales. In all honesty, Splicer, I think you're clever and sensible enough to understand all that, and the only reason you continue to look down on Baam despite his very well done character-building is either an habit or a lack of distance with your emotions about Rachel. (I won't say the same about Dongtae, he's not nearly as well built as Baam).
You're perfectly right when you say that Baam "should" choose life. It's true. But between what we should do, and what we do, there is one thing : ourselves, our flaws, our hopes, what makes us humans and living.
That said, you're really interesting to read, thanks for your answers, and thanks to the others guys for your comments as well. n_n
@Anonymous 3:21 -> well, I think it depends. Look at Dongtae. He doesn't receive quests anymore. He's satisfied, he's happy. In his case, the DIC power was used well and arrived at a balance point. The problem lies in others, who want ever more, and maybe in X, who wants not to be bored anymore.
I see your point, and I agree it's a possible interpretation.
Then again, if that is what the author is aiming at, I must say that Baam is not supposed to be admired, he is supposed to be pitied.
At least by this description he looks quite pitiful to me. Which is not necessarily a bad thing.
By the way, your example of the freed slave who goes back to their former master only puts Baam in an even worse light.
I can accept that.
@Aka kensei:
No problem, I am the one who must learn not to be so sensitive. I wasn't really harassed in the past, it's just that it's a bit exasperating to see people react with shock whenever I or someone else voices an interest in Rachel.
I haven't posted on Rachel elsewhere for a long time now, mainly because I think I have already said everything I have to say, at least until we learn more from the story. Nowadays, I post extensively at Mangahelpers as Kendama, but exclusively on DICE (and not only on Eunju, although she does occupy quite a substantial part of my comments).
@other Anonymous:
I agree, the fact that she realised the true nature of Dice from the very beginning is one of the things that I most admire about Eunju.
By the way, I don't look down on Baam. I did say he, Headon and Rachel and the mystery around them are the only things that interest me in ToG. I am merely pointing out that I find her more interesting.
Baam's eternal chase after her doesn't appeal to me that much. It's a matter of taste. I can understand why some people like it, but I am not one of them.
I don't think he is chasing after her on a whim, but he has gone through enough extreme situations to start healing that wound. Time cures all. I believe that strongly. The problem is that he doesn't move a finger to heal. The only focus of his mind's eye is Rachel.
The lengths to which he goes to pursue her are impressive, but I like her better because she is forward looking.
In that sense, I really find Koon pitiful as well, his feelings of revenge are retrograde to the utmost. He can't be that serious about succeeding his father if he can make such a pointless detour just to destroy a girl who is no threat to him just to get back at her.
Finally, as I said before, Dan agreed to Koon's plan to destroy Rachel, so he became a legitimate target too. I wouldn't have minded if she had killed him, he had it coming. I am ready to forgive her outburst because she had been showing mercy to one of her would-be traitors. Incidentally, by calling her a traitor, Dan showed himself as an hipocrite. The stabbing was quite a light punishment, in my opinion.
About Dongtae… yeah, he used Dice well. He, Taebin and Mio are the exceptions that prove the rule as they did not go power-crazy.
However, I don't think Dongtae is morally in the same league as Eunju. Not by a long shot.
I have written extensively about that, but if there is one thing I can blame Dongtae fair and square for is his decision to accept X's pranks in the first stage of the series. Don't forget that Byungchul was bullied by Bowl-hair precisely because Dongtae fulfilled a quest by stealing his maths notes (chapter nine). That incident triggered everything that happened afterwards and in a sense, Taebin is right (chapter 23): this is all Dongtae's fault for accepting to be X's useful idiot.
It's easy to say "I didn't hurt anyone, the problem are the others", but Dongtae hasn't spent a single second reflecting about the inherent problems of Dice. The fact that he is not ambitious and is well-intentioned doesn't change the fact he benefited from a thing that causes death and destruction to most people. Even now he defends Dice and their existence. By the way, the main reason he has decided to give up on Eunju (something I applaud) seems to be her refusal to acknowledge Dice. In a sense, he has chosen Dice over her.
Fair enough, I can understand his train of thought. I hope he doesn't have to suffer because of that but if he does, I hope he at least accepts the consequences of his decisions, like Eunju does.
However, I like him. After Eunju, he is my favourite character. I like his peculiar combination of weakness and strength, and his continuous contradictions.
My favourite of his contradictions is that, although he is grateful to Dice for being reborn, he hid his Dicership from Eunju and when she received Dice, he asked "Eunju, you can't be serious about becoming a Dicer?"
Poor fool… if Dice are that wonderful in his opinion, why was he ashamed of admiting to being a Dicer before her and why did he think it shocking that Eunju might become one? What's the message here, "I like Dice for myself but don't want Eunju to be corrupted by them"?
same here, i love baam character building, although he seems like the strongest guy mentally and (soon) physically, he's actually quite frail/empty inside, i kinda get the feeling of a lost child from him, as he doesn't have any ambitions(mostly) other than finding rachel, kinda feels like a child searching for his mother in an aspect, as you said, i like how the author really made him look "human".
and yeah, splicer's comments are interesting aren't they? i usually search for someone saying "HOW CAN YOU LIKE EUNJU?!" in the comments and then splicer saying something around the lines "sigh... here we go again..." then continues in a 300 word essay, really interesting and fun to read
@splicer
for me i like the concept of "irreplaceable" and "never ending", it's quite beautiful, mostly because it's something that doesn't really exist, something unreachable for humans, but still humans try to reach it, but even if i do like it, my cup of tea is not everybody's.
as for koon, his character is still not "fledged out" imo, but i think the author is trying to imply that baam reached quite a place in his heart (not romantically), that it even rivals koon's ambitions in importance (and that's quite big since he comes from a royal family , and your career means everything in that kind of world) anyway i like koon's personality (the loner, non-trusting, person that is actually quite loyal and a good person, but still uses force when necessary(most characters now days refuse to kill the enemy, which is annoying and repetitive)), i usually find my self rooting for those kind of characters quite often, he's the kind i like i suppose.
as for dan, true, he agreed on betraying her before she betrayed him, and so it's hard to judge her for that, but still dan didn't deserve what she did, as he still didn't betray her, and she destroyed everything he has (his speed) because he didn't agree to help her, which kind of indicates she's kinda of psychotic or likes to dominate with power, also she didn't have to do that, because even if she left him there without doing anything to him, it wouldn't really matter, she just hurt him more on a "whim" than defending her self, even so, the ToG world morality isn't very defined, and other people in the tower killed others for much less reasons, so seeing her as the villain because of what she did is not very possible, still i felt bad for dan, as he wasn't a bad person to begin with and the deal with koon's revenge didn't have much to do with him >.>
as for dongate, i think the author intended for him to be something around the lines of "someone who isn't and doesn't do evil, but still looks away for his own benefit" (aka he uses dice as you pointed out,but still he doesn't want eunju to use dice, because he already knows of the things that come beside the benefits) i find that quite interesting, and i want to find out how that plays out (although i don't think it's going to end with anything but "i accept my self without dice", although it's a good thing, i still want a twist in his personality (maybe get actually corrupted by dice, possibly because of the fear of losing them)
even so tbh, i don't have a favorite character in DICE, as non of them hits my vibe (as i said, my usual favorite is the "loner/depressed character, who has a good heart but still can take hard decisions (think Rossiu Adai from Gurren Lagann) kind of character"
oh i also forgot to say as for koon i think why he cares so much for baam (he wants to get revenge on rachel even if it's actually pointless and very resource-taking) is because, baam is the first "real" person in koon's life, the first honest person, and possibly the first person to treat him not based on his family but him as a person, which "hit home" for koon i think
aside from the alligator though, which i quite like btw, he's the "big brother" of the group, and the simple minded guy that always knows what's right and what to do, really fits in the circle around baam and koon
Actually, Rachel's outburst didn't happen when Dan refused to help her. If you read the chapter again, she lost it when he accused her of being a traitor. Well, if in Koon's opinion betrayal deserves death, in Rachel's a false accusation (in her view) combined with hipocrisy deserve a good stabbing. I still see no matter. And sincerely, I don't think she betrayed him or Koon, because she had legitimate cause for striking them down. One cannot betray someone towards whom one has no loyalty.
Koon's motivations for revenge changed. I could kinda understand it if he were still after her solely because of Baam, but he has admitted that he will have revenge on her for what she did to him, and won't let even Baam stand on his way. In other words, this has no longer anything to do with Baam: it is petty revenge for something it's Koon's own fault in the first place. I could understand it if it were just a matter of sending some hitmen to kill Rachel, but he is actually risking his primary goals to pursue her. Nonsense, in my opinion.
As for DICE, I actually like the concepts of "irreplaceable" and "forever" in fiction, but only when they are individual journeys. When other people are jeopardised, I am not so happy with the character doing it.
Still, I admired, in the beginning, Dongtae's "irreplaceable", unconditional love for Eunju. Now that he has grown up out of it, I feel that Mio is the perfect match for him and I fully agree that what he felt for Eunju wasn't really love. That's part of the reason why I said earlier that I don't think he is worthy of her (yet, at least). I think this series is more down-to-earth than ToG, in that it does not romanticise things much.
rachel outburst-ed when he called her a traitor? i really have to read that chapter again, because this puts her in a much new light for me.
i think i need a reread, i seem to have missed a lot of points that are important in understanding their character, although for koon, now i think it's more around the line of "pride", he's around the lines "how dare she do that!", as he is royal and mostly has a lot of pride,
and sorry for not being clear, i meant "irreplaceable" and "forever" as in how baam chases after rachel, and as in how rachel is "irreplaceable" for him and he wants to stay with her "forever", it may not be as happy as the usual "irreplaceable" concepts in other fiction, but still i feel it's interesting and im waiting to see how that goes (as you said before about their re-encounter, although it may be "perfect" to meet each other after becoming rankers, but for me i do not find that very interesting) tbh i want baam to go kind of "mad" for chasing rachel, but that's more of a personal want, as good characters that go "dark" interest me heh
as for dongtae's love for eunju, tbh i didnt like it much from the start, and i felt it was kind of shallow. as in, if mio (before using dice) was the one who smiled or tried to help him, im pretty sure he wouldn't have fallen in love or admired her. so im thankful it didn't turn out to be love, as that would make me much less interested in dongtae.
either way i do think mio is the perfect match for him, they share very similar conditions, and i like their match up anyway, i find it cute
yeah, DICE is more down to earth (well ToG is in a tower after all~~). although the author hinted it a long time ago, that eunju X dongtae won't happen, because eunju is in love with taebin, actually in love not just "like", teabin already knows her past and all but is still with her, meaning he loves her enough for that to not matter(not sure though, my memory is foggy), and lastly, teabin is not a bad guy, fictions usually use the "the one the heroin is in love with turned out to be a bad guy, so the main character X heroin coupling can happen now" kind of path, either way i think eunju X teabin is very fitting
ToG goes with the usual "shounen" formula(aka 90% of female characters have feeling for the mc and he doesn't return any of them and is dense enough to not notice any of them, aka "harem"), which tbh i find kind of degrading and not interesting, and well, just a stupid way to get more viewers >.> i prefer quality over stupid developments that are just there for "fan service",
Rachel lost her composure when Dan said "after all, you kicked two friends with those legs of yours, didn't you?".
As for Koon, I agree with you, it's probably nobility pride, and as I really despise that emotion, I despise his character by extension.
Back to Dongtae, I don't rule out the possibility that he will fall in love again for her, this time for better reasons. Right now, Mio makes more sense, though. Then again, if you think it was shallow in the beginning because Eunju was pretty, isn't it shallow now that Mio is pretty, too? (This is a devil's advocate question, I have a more elaborate take on Dongtae's emotions.)
As for Eunju, I don't think we can infer from the story that he "knows her past" and "is still with her". He actually put an end to their relationship on chapter 67 and in a very nasty way, too. I consider him a damaged personality, but won't elaborate because I have already written at length about it at Mangahelpers. Whether he can even feel real love is open to discussion, in my opinion. He is the most disliked character by readers after Eunju and Mooyoung, but I quite pity him.
that's actually quite interesting for rachel to get angry when he said that, it could be she simply got angry for -basically- calling her a traitor while he planed to betray her, or it could be she felt remorse/guilt when he mentioned baam, and that guilt turned into anger.
same here for nobility pride, i despise this emotion, although i still don't despise koon because pride wasn't the only thing he showed in the series.
for dongtae, yeah we can't rule out the possibility, but if the author does, i hope it won't be cliche, i think dongtae falling in love with eunju before using dice is shallow because he was(or he felt he was) on a lower level than eunju, and saw her as an unreachable "flower", and people see what they can't reach as something way more amazing that it is, he now realized that his feeling aren't love (or at least most of them), and that happened only when he felt he reached a similar level as her's. for mio, i think if he really fell in love with her, it wouldn't be shallow, because they always were (or felt they were) on the same level, they also share a similar past and similar ambitions and fears, could be wrong though, as i said before, i like loner/depressed characters with a good heart, and mio to some extent reaches that criteria, so my judgment could be swayed by my like for mio's character.
i agree on him being a damaged personality, as he lost his first friends, in quite a gruesome way, plus in the peek of his happiness, and i think he's now afraid, maybe from losing important people again, or generally just afraid. i don't think he's an "evil" character, but as i stated before i think he's just afraid. as when he put an end to his relationship with eunju, i don't think we can rule out the possibility of him afraid of losing her if she knew the truth about him(so he just couldn't take the pressure anymore and ended it), or just want her to be away from dice and the damage that comes with it, and him in the process. and same here, i pity him more than i dislike his actions.
I read ToG on LINE webtoons, the official Naver site in English.
I don't normally ponder the nature of love too much, even in fiction, because I think almost any feeling can give rise to love. Especially in a teenager experiencing these feelings for the first time, like Dongtae.
His admiration for Eunju could have turned into love if he had had a chance to confess to her.
His feelings for Mio can evolve into love, similarly, if Dongtae spends more time with her.
But I don't think if Mio were not a Dicer Dongtae would consider dating her. He is guided by looks, which is natural at his age and among human beings in general. Shallowness is not something determined by first impressions: Eunju is not shallow for feeling attracted to Taebin, she would be shallow if his good looks were the only thing that determined her attachment. But he clearly treated her with tenderness, care and attention, and they spent time together for weeks before she asked him out.
Love is not an outburst, it is a daily practice. I respected Dongtae's feelings for Eunju, although I thought they lacked definition. Similarly, I don't think what he feels for Mio right now qualifies as love, he is simply beginning to reciprocate her attentions. It's symptomatic that he decided what he felt for Eunju was not love AFTER his last disappointment (chapters 56-57). Until then, nothing in the world would have convinced him it wasn't love. But when he was disappointed, the feeling changed, and thus he found another explanation. But ex post facto explanations are poor rationalisations, and love is something felt, not explained.
Similarly, it's not impossible that he will decide "it is love, after all" in the future if he has an opportunity to spend time with Eunju again. And then he will find another explanation.
But I don't think this story will become that sophisticated in the romantic side. The final outcome will depend on several factors, not least the fact that Eunju is so hated that the author will feel some pressure not to pair her up with the protagonist. It will also depend on Mio's mental stability and how she deals with her insecurities. And of course, there's always the possibility that Eunju may finally become corrupted and/or meet a tragic end.
Right now, this seems to be moving towards "Mio with Dongtae, Eunju alone, Taebin dead", in my opinion.
true, if mio wasn't a dicer, dongtea would not see her as a possible partner, but that's humans, love is supposed to be for the person itself, without the looks, but that is mostly un-achievable by most humans.
i think there exists a somewhat of a plothole about how dongtae gave up on eunju, i think the author choose the path of "he admired but not loved her" instead of "he gave up on her and now searching for a new love" line, which is cliche but it makes the reader less sad/disappointed in dongtae.
i have a similar opinion on where this story is heading, but mostly i think taebin won't die, but he will lose his "looks" and probably at least 1 or more of the 5 senses. still i think the show will end with a generally "happy ending", the author didn't give me the feeling of a sad ending so far.
These discussions about have given me new insight on the characters. Thanks Splicer for continually putting in the effort of responding. Since I haven't read any of the other comments you reference, I wouldn't have been able to receive this insight. Eunju's a good person and a good character. So I think what annoyed me the most was Dongtae's persistence for her up to this point, and I began directing my annoyance towards her. And I'll admit my biggest gripe is her opposition to the dice. Up to then I had really liked her. She seemed to be in denial about what was going on around her. I had wished that she would have found a way to work around the fact that people were using dice. (Give up the dice she had found for start). But now looking back there was much prejudice at her for being innately pretty and talented. So many of the events would have probably still existed and it would go against her beliefs. Thanks for all you've given me to chew on.
As for Rachel, I really like her as a character, and your right; the morals in ToG are very loosely defined (I had always thought intentionally) so what she's doing might as well be 'good'. But the reason in relation to the ToG universe that she could be considered a villian is that she is in cooperation with FUG to achieve her goals. Which from the standpoint of the society is a 'bad' organization
Her opposition to Dice is what I have analysed the most. If I were to paste here, it would be walls and walls of text. But I can give a very synthetic version of my view:
i. She is not against Dice themselves, she always qualifies her criticism by saying the problem is what people are driven to do to obtain them. Her enemy is X, not Dicers.
ii. When she says people should work hard with what they have been given, and they would not need ESP powers, this is actually in keeping with Taebin's view on chapter 67: with or without Dice, the world would be pretty much the same. The virtue is in hard work.
iii. It's possible to argue that Dice themselves are a pernicious thing. The gist of the argument is Lord Acton's famous saying: "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
A careful reading of chapters 19 (the conversation back from Byungchul's house, containing her notorious "I think people should live the way they are born", which is immediately qualified by her "I think we should work hard with what we have been given"), 23 (her famous "if that is true, I don't think these things should exist") and 34 (the rooftop speech) is essential to understand her stance on Dice.
She is not an hipocrite, or shallow, or a Luddite, much less naïve. If anything, she sees the whole picture that escapes all Dicers, even Dongtae, Taebin and Mio. But I'll stop here, for fear of repeating myself.
I have never found her to be hipocritical. She has been very consistent with her beliefs.Those two quotes are where I believe that she is nieve. In the real world statistics proves that those who are more attractive, more talented etc do better in life. I find her too idealistic. But I'll pretend that in the context of this world anyone can "work hard with what they have" and be able to achieve success. To say that people should live like they were born when they have an option to change them self for the better is selfish in my belief. But you say she is not against the dice it self but the means people attain the dice. Which if she is not against the dice why does she hold the belief that people "should live the way they were born"? I'm perfectly fine with her being against X and his motives and the means people attain the dice. I just think there is an inconsistency in her own motivation.
Sorry, but I cannot give a full answer… because I have discussed all of that already. Please refer to my comments as Kendama at Mangahelpers. However, it is quite a long reading, I'm afraid.
I can give you this snippet, though: she is absolutely consistent. The remark about people living the way they were born is from before she knew of Dice. So she was speaking of life in general.
I may also remark that "working hard" is also a way of changing oneself for the better. Statistics only indicate a trend for success, they are not a sentence of failure or success. Actually, personal effort, when factored in these same statistics, normally outweighs natural talents. So she is not being selfish, she is saying that one should make the most of what one has. Which, by the way, is what we know she has been doing all this time: Eunju is always seen practising her singing, studying and working hard through life.
The naïve ones, in my opinion, are those who think they can take a shortcut (i.e. Dice) to happiness. Then again, I have also argued all of this extensively.
I took the time to read the referenced posts. And extensive they are.You have done a very thorough explanation behind your views and a break down on the perspectives of the characters. You used some nice analogies for points. After reading your posts I've come to take a new look at the series. I now feel like I was reading the series too passively (shame on me). I'm really glad that I had read this comment section and that you have taken your time to persistently address this topic.
During my readings you had mentioned you had posted on batato and elsewhere. I'm interested in reading as much as you've had to say on this topic because I find your analyzations very well thought out and informable. You seem to be a very well read person and I love the references you have made to other material. In addition, do you have chapter by chapter anylisis for the earlier chapters like you do on mangahelper? Your ability to for tell events is astounding. And ive had a very enjoyable time reading through your writing.
I am flattered. Thank you very much for your interest. Here are a few answers to your questions:
i. I commented on Batoto before I moved to Mangahelpers, so my comments there are older. They are also made as Kendama and are in the comment section below the list of chapters, not in the forums. In them, I covered mainly the issue of why I don't think Eunju is an hypocrite (to an extent that, when I arrived at Mangahelpers, I announced I wasn't willing to discuss the topic any further). Some of my arguments appear for the first time there.
ii. I'm afraid I wasn't doing a chapter by chapter analysis until I arrived at Mangahelpers. My interest in the series grew progressively until I realised what the author seemed to be trying to do - a discussion on morality and choice well hidden by a shounen plot. I only became obsessive at that point.
If you really want to know how far the discussion has gone, if you haven't done it yet, you may wish to read my interlocutors' comments at Mangahelpers, especially Syx and Jammin. Jammin, for example, was the first one to articulate the notion that Dice change who you are.
Here at Dicescans, I have detailed discussions on the posts for chapters 72 and 81.
Basically, I love Mangahelper and Dicescans because the discussion in these places is civilised. I abandoned Batoto, as you probably know from having read about it at Mangahelpers, because I was disgusted at the vitriol being poured out there.
I think there is a semi-conscious reason why I do this, other than the fact that I really believe the series is interesting enough to warrant such a discussion.
I am really worried at the reasons WHY people hate Eunju that much.
Some of these people may have just not given themselves the trouble of reflecting upon the structure of the series. This is perfectly understandable, as not everyone thinks about a webtoon as if it were a classical novel or something.
However, I'm afraid people who will hate Eunju no matter what are… well, essentially people who are thrilled by the idea of Dice and would love if something like that existed. In other words, people who would be easy prey for X and devolve into moral monsters like Miju and Sungchul.
They do exist in real life, people who will buy any sort of miracle solution or nostrum and use it acritically.
I am just scared at the prospect that they may be the majority. My heart sinks when I look at the Eunju hater number at the poll to the right in this page. If that is the case, the author of this series has managed to unearth a very disturbing picture of human nature… not a surprising one, though.
Jin said above that she would probably use the Dice. I am a little sad to admit I probably would as well. At least I like to think I would be more like Dongtae, Mio and Taebin, who may use Dice but respect Eunju for not doing it and resist the allure of power.
In that sense, I am glad someone can read my views on Eunju and see her differently. It indicates my fears may be unfounded.
Due to batoto search system being bad it took me some time to reach your comments. I went page by page starting at the end. So to save the time of anyone who also wishes to read up Splicer starts posting on page 17 (well for now, as new posts are added the number will increase). I chuckled at the end of your first comment. "Sorry, I'm just bored.) The interesting aspect of that remark is that I've both heard and read how boredom is actually good for people. Being bored allows us to absorb and contemplate the world around us and the media we consume. I wish that I would have time again to be bored but so many things are vying for attention its hard to just stop. This ties into what I said before about having read the series too passively. Coming from my "unenlightened" past I can salt see why so many people are haters of Eunju. Perhaps the author did reveal the ugly side of humans not only through the characters but the audience itself. I wonder if the proportions of moral people in the story can be proportionated... Which is indeed a scary thought. Reading the discussings and pausing to consider Dice as more than just an entertaining story has been a rewarding experience for me. Reading through the conversations reminds me of my high school literature classes. I feel as though you could have been one of my teachers (whom I all hold in high esteem). The literary references always excite me since it was stuff I had studied. Perhaps I'll become an active participant for future discussions. Haha look at this rant; I'm embarrassed ^^
Now to have this not be competly off topic. I present a the situation where a person's favorite character is X. Since I haven't had the opportunity to read through the hundreds of comments on Batoto, perhaps this has already been addressed. I'm just surprised at how highly popular he is. And am wondering if other people's reasons are similar to mine.
Well, this situation is actually a reality, as X is the second most-liked character according to the poll here.
But I don't think it is a mystery.
Some people like villains in fiction. I am one of them, as you know from reading my comments on Rachel. X is a monster, but he is funny, clever and calculating, as well as a major troll. So I think most people like him because he is interesting.
I admire his character construction, but I voted for him as my most hated character, although, in retrospect, maybe Mooyoung irks me more. However, I don't think the fact that many people like him disturbs me nearly as much as the widespread hatred for Eunju.
There may be a subset of his admirers who have bought into the nonsense that he is not evil, is an amoral, even neutral agent and the Dicers have only themselves to blame for the consequences of their actions. However, I suspect these people are in the minority, most of those who like him are probably only entertained by his thought process and behaviour. So am I, to be honest. He is highly effective as a villain, and I respect that. It's like reading Iago in Othello, we hate his guts but cannot fail to laugh a little when he is on the stage. One of the things that make DICE a great series is X, undoubtedly.
right when it gets interesting
ReplyDeleteEnjoy the cliffhanger :-D
DeleteJin, I love you
ReplyDelete...Mom?
DeleteFlattery will get you nowhere! XD
DeleteSplicer, I love you
Delete-Different anon
Sorry, I am already in for trouble loving Eunju and Rachel at the same time. No room for another one in my heart.
Deletebro great work like always may god bless u! frm: naren
DeleteIf you are talking about Jin, it's not bro, it's sis.
DeleteWell, I love you both! :3 LOL
DeleteSplicer, may I ask you if it's Rachel from Tower of God ?
DeleteIt is.
Deletehow can you love one who is escaping from an overly attached boyfriend, with that insane method?!?
DeleteSigh... and I keep saying this is not a ToG discussion forum... one cannot even make a jocular comment and the anti-Rachel brigade pounces...
DeleteLook, I love the character Rachel. It's not a person.
I fully understand that she is (in all likelihood) a villain. However, to me she is (by a far, far margin) the most interesting character in Tower of God. I enjoy reading about her schemes, trying to guess her motivations, how she seems to draw strong allies to her apparently without effort and how she always seems to be one step ahead of Baam.
ToG wouldn't be the first case of a series in which the most interesting character is not a white hat, so what's the problem with liking Rachel?
In my opinion (not that it matters), Rachel knew all the time that Baam would survive being thrown off the submarine. Frankly, I consider most of her actions in perfect agreement with usual practices inside the Tower. That Zahard princess everyone likes killed more allies in the floor of test than Rachel did in the entire tower, incidentally. Her backstabbing of Koon was perfectly justified given that she knew Koon wanted to, in his words, "abandon her in her direst need". Tough luck that she made her move first. From the moment the rest of his team agreed to that, all became fair game to her. I would have considered it self-defence even if she killed everyone.
All in all, I don't like ToG much. It's an okay series, but the only moments I really enjoy are when Rachel is in action. The only plot that interests me is the mystery around her, Baam and Headon. Everything else plays as a vague blur in the background. I get some comic relief from Anak Zahard, but that's all. I don't even bother to learn the other characters' names.
And frankly, any rational person would have gotten the message by now, but Baam insists in chasing her. That's a bit pathetic, even disgusting, in my opinion. What the heck does he want? An explanation? She gave one in the prologue! Move on, man, you have friends, girls are taking numbers to date you, her goal is not incompatible with any of your allies'...
The only reason they are even fighting is that they are trying to get in her way for no discernible reason other than petty revenge for wrongs that are pretty much self-inflicted.
Baam should just let her chase the stars and go find his happiness elsewhere. Grow up, kid!
you don't need to answer everytime someone asks, just direct them to a previous discussion, or just say you like her character and it makes the story interesting or something, cuz if you take it seriously or personally everytime someone asks you, it's just going to depress you imo, just saying
Deleteand btw i do agree she's an interesting character too, not sure if i should despise her or not, cuz her motives are not very clear yet, although if the author decide's to make her "the character who was forced to do bad things while having pure heart"... it's gonna be disappointing, i want her to be a full time villain not a part time, i have a similar opinion on eunju as well.
Don't worry, I normally don't answer. However, since it is the second or third time someone asks and I haven't answered it in this blog yet, I decided to give a full answer.
DeleteAnd you are right, I need to stop taking this seriously. The problem is that I can spend a whole night discussing anything, but in the case of Rachel (and Eunju), my feeling is that no one is really willing to read a different point of view. Most people have knee-jerk "Eunju that filthy hipocrite" or "Rachel that ugly bitch" reactions that I find disappointing. Especially in the case of DICE, which I consider a great moral tale with lots of food for thought.
I have stated my cases on Rachel and Eunju long ago, and I know I am a minority opinion holder. I'm not alone, though, there are some rare people who have reached similar conclusions out there, meaning I'm probably not a loony.
Just out of curiosity, when you say "I have a similar opinion of Eunju", do you mean you also want her to become a villain? 'Cause if that's the case, we differ quite a lot in regards to her.
(As far as Rachel is concerned, I don't consider ToG a full-fledged moral tale, its morality is very poorly-defined, and I don't think the things she has been doing are all that bad relative to everyone else. The only reason she is - probably - a villain is because everyone who is supposed to be a hero is trying to stop her for reasons that are quite weak on closer inspection.)
you're not alone in that opinion, that's for sure.
Deletewhen i said "i have a similar opinion of eunju", i tend to be not very clear sometimes, sorry for that,, what i meant is, that i wanted her to turn to the character that does what everyone else is afraid of (aka destroying dice).
and so in the process (in the eyes of other dicers) she will seem like a villain, which in reality, she isn't, she is actually destroying something "evil", because humans aren't supposed to get what they always want, as that will turn them into basically "evil" creatures (as how the dicers almost lost all their morality, and just care about getting more dice).
all in all, i want her to be an important piece in the manhwa, mostly the "solving" piece, that maybe not all people view as a "hero" but more like a "villain",, and as they say, truth hurts, and the truth is: DICE did way more damage than good it did, but still dicers won't really agree with that, and will see her as the villain.
anyway i find that to be more interesting than her other possible paths.
as for Tog, that's true, it isn't very defined in the moral aspect, im not sure if that's just poor writing or the writer did that on purpose (would make it more interesting if that was intentional), although for rachel, i want her to be a real villain (well maybe not really a "villain" but someone around the lines of "i'll do anything to get what i want")
and just a note for something you said (absolutely no offense intended, just wanted to point something out). you said "Baam should just let her chase the stars and go find his happiness elsewhere. Grow up, kid!", i think that's true, but, you're kinda forgetting that baam only knew rachel for his whole life, and i think he's more around the lines "lost", because she was his whole life and suddenly she isn't,
or at least that's what i think, could be wrong.
I agree with you, it would be cool if Eunju accomplished that. I also agree about Rachel.
DeleteAs for Baam, I was only half-serious when I said that. I understand that she meant to him even more than a mother would to a child, she was everything to him.
Still, one has to grow up eventually. Years have passed since he entered the Tower. He has grown stronger, found allies, developed his own reasons to fight, there are girls interested in him. He has people and things to protect now, as well as people who rely on him and would give their lives fighting alongside him. All of that should have already replaced Rachel's original role.
He is a full-fledged human being now, with his own concerns and emotions. Sticking to Rachel is the same as sticking to a past that is not coming back. There's absolutely no reason to chase after her: her goal is no threat to anyone other than those who stand in her way... and the same is true of anyone else's goal in the Tower.
It's actually clear from his actions that he doesn't even love her anymore (he recently referred to her as his "former friend"). If he is only after an explanation... then this is really stupid, I'm afraid. Write her a letter, dammit, I'm sure the guide girl, who is also from FUG, would be able to get it to her. He is risking his and other people's lives for an answer that Rachel gave him already in the prologue.
that is true, but still, not everyone can move on, and even when they do it's not a complete "move on" (moving on is extremely hard, and in reality most people don't actually succeed in it, and especially so if it's on the level of rachel for baam).
Deletefor "All of that should have already replaced Rachel's original role", i can't agree with that, it's like saying you no longer care for your original mother because you have friends or you achieved your dream job (i didn't say a stepmother because rachel and all the things baam has now do not play the same role)
personally i think baam is very weak mentally, as the things the moves him are either finding rachel or protecting his friends, that kinda of points that baam is actually very lacking in personal will, and i think that means he needs her more than we think, because she is the only thing to fill his heart(apart from his friends/other goals, but i don't think they are at the same level in importance for him),
that's just a personal opinion, could be wrong.
you said "It's actually clear from his actions that he doesn't even love her anymore", im not sure about that, because in the recent chapters when rachel was mentioned by his enemies, baam would lose his composure and make stupid actions just to find her, and i think that mean that he still cares about her to the amount where he would lose his cool/composure,
tbh i completely forgot about the prologue before, i just read it again(assuming you were talking about the prologue of the whole series, not season 2), and i think writer was set on what to do from the start,
as rachel said to baam "forget about me" (if this the answer you talked about, then baam already answered to it with >) and baam said "ill follow you until i die",
btw rachel smirked a little before she disappeared, maybe that points that she is happy how much baam is ready to go for her, just maybe.
i do find how baam is set-on finding rachel kind of boring and disappointing, but i don't think it's completely unrealistic, as this shows how much he cares/cared about her, but it could also point that baam is not that good of a person as he prefers the option of him staying by her side to the option of her reaching her dream but without him,,
also i really like "irreplaceable" relationships/people in any plot, kinda gives you fuzzy feeling (although maybe not that fuzzy in this story~)
sorry if anything didn't make sense (im quite bad at explaining what i mean in the i mean it) and sorry for the lengthy post, probably got bored if you read it heh
You're completely neglecting the emotional part of Baam, who lived we don't know how long alone in a dark cave without having seen anyone.
DeleteYes, if he were a robot, he could just do what is usefull and efficient. He's not. The person most important to him, the first human being he met, the person who was his sole spark of life in a world of darkness and void, tried to kill him. And he needs to know why. To have a real talk. He seeks understanding.
In this, the author of ToG is very good. His main character is very... human. And because he's a "full-fledged human being now", he needs his answer all the more.
I'm surprised it is so hard to understand.
In the prologue, I referred to her reasons for climbing the tower: "I'm sick of living like this in this dark world" and so on. He should have been able to deduce that she couldn't take him along (because the Tower only accepts those it chooses etc.).
DeleteYes, she was happy that he was ready to go so far, it is a proof of his love, but by now it should be clear to him that she has chosen her goal instead of him.
And frankly, I'm pretty confident Headon forbade her from telling of their deal to anyone, so it's not as if meeting her will solve anything. And since Rachel is a liar even by Baam's own admission, why is he so ready to listen to what she might say? She may say anything, actually, and he will never be sure that it is the truth.
To the other anon:
What is hard to understand to me is that Baam is not only ready to risk himself, he is ready to risk other people's lives in pursuit of Rachel. His behaviour in the train town tournament was inexcusable. He saved everyone, granted, but he couldn't predict his success in advance.
And that has been his pattern of behaviour ever: it may be admirable, but frankly, what else does he need to know that she doesn't want to meet him, doesn't want him to climb the Tower with her, and will do whatever it takes to prevent their re-encounter? She told the blue-haired singer about how clingy Baam is, so it's even a conversation topic in their group.
And sure, he is not a robot, but as I said, years have passed now. How much longer does he need to realise his is a fool's errand? If he is emotionally handicapped by his past, that's the same as saying all of his allies, people who will kill and die for him, cannot fill the void left by Rachel. That's a poor return for those allies' loyalty, in my opinion.
Rachel is fine without him, and he knows it. She is ready to live with the consequences of her choices, but he refuses to accept the fact.
If he is ready to endanger his new life, full of everything he always craved (true friends), for the sake of "understanding" which is pretty much a pie in the sky, I'm afraid I can never support him.
Answers are important, but life is more. Baam should choose life, and let his heart fill the void with other things. What he cannot do is have his cake and eat it. I bet he hasn't even asked himself what he really thinks he will find out if he meets her.
My idea of a re-encounter would be when it didn't matter anymore. A casual encounter in a high floor, after both were Rankers, devoid of any interest. Then chances would be actually higher that Rachel would tell the truth and Baam would believe it.
In my view, the one who is actually struggling and suffering the consequences of her past decisions the most is Rachel. Baam is powerful, fears no one, has the trust of everyone around him, and can actually change the whole fate of the Tower. Even the hip-hop pervert has his eyes on him. Rachel is still weak, surrounded by people who are dodgy at best, needs to plan her every next step carefully or die in the hands of her enemies and has to cope with Baam's constant pursuit. And yet she seems okay with it, whereas Baam is the one throwing a tantrum.
i do agree with you, and i do agree that rachel is the one who suffers the most upon a closure look, and most people tend to forget about that.
Deleteeven so, have you ever met a situation which, even if you did whatever you could it still doesn't matter, but even so you did? i did, and i believe a lot of people did too.
for baam i think he isn't "intentionally" putting his friends in danger, what i mean is, if you ask him: would you put your friends in danger to meet rachel?, he would anwer (as how i understood his personality) : NO! of course not!!
but even so when the moment come's he will still put his friends in danger if that opens a window to meet rachel, he's not a hypocrite, but that's how most people deal with something as important as rachel to baam, they make stupid decisions and so on
maybe mostly he doesn't really care about her answer or so, but just want to meet her
and remember that when people depend on something their whole life, and suddenly it disappears, they just can't go on without it, EVEN if there are things that fill that void
(purely just as an example)
when the slaves were freed in america (im not really good with history so forgive me for not using names or/and mistakes), after a while they got back to their "owners", the reason why this happened is they just can't live without something that decided their whole life, even if they found a much better life elsewhere,
it's the like what people say, old habits die hard, and the case with baam is something much bigger than a habit,
he just can't go on without rachel, period.
that's it, really, rachel is something that need to exist in him, that's how i see it tbh. and as the other anon said, he's not a robot, because if he just moved on, that means rachel wasn't a part big enough of his life for him to risk all just for her, and i think the author made it clear that rachel is everything for baam from the start
try to look from his perspective too, not just rachel,
Hi Splicer,
DeleteSorry if I got you upset with my question, and sorry if I made you go through all this trouble to explain your reasons.
Just to make me clear here, I was asking just to ( if confirmed it was from ToG ) make a joke that you usually likes the "most hated" characters of webtoons... So, I'm really sorry it caused you any troubles.
But, seeing your arguments, I would love to one day talk with you about your visions on these character and even other webtoons we may both read, so, if you participate in any forums ( and wouldn't mind me to join your discussions ) please let me know ! ^^
Oh, and as you can see, since chapter 50-something I always comment here with my Google ID, so if any anom annoyed you after my question, rest assured that it wasn't me ><
Again, sorry for the inconvenience.
Just thought I'd point out that Eunju is my favorite because she's the only one who knows that the DICE power isn't worth the cost. Regardless of whether she didn't like our daring protagonist
Delete@aka Kensei -> I kept myself from joking about how Splicer love for "most hated characters" probably is just a way to be different than others people. :p (it's not, I know, but that would have been easy to say !) So I understand why you made that joke xD
DeleteI agree with Anon 1:57. We need to see things from both points of view. I understand Rachel for being annoyed that Baam clings to her (what I don't understand is what she did to Dan, the fast guy... just pure cruelty and madness, which is the main thing that makes me think this girl is a real vilain, like the crazy kind of vilain), but I also understand Baam for needing an answer, a discussion, an understanding.
I don't really have more to say than what Anon 1;57, he perfectly understood what I said about Baam not being a robot.
In matters of love (and not only the romantic one), of feelings, you can't expect people to act with logic and to replace things with others. People don't have the same value, the same place, in our heart. A friend won't replace another friend. He (or she) will just be another friend, different.
You're comparing his relationship with the first living being he met, his first contact with life, with a cake, a whim. That makes no sense. They're on totally different scales.
In all honesty, Splicer, I think you're clever and sensible enough to understand all that, and the only reason you continue to look down on Baam despite his very well done character-building is either an habit or a lack of distance with your emotions about Rachel. (I won't say the same about Dongtae, he's not nearly as well built as Baam).
You're perfectly right when you say that Baam "should" choose life. It's true. But between what we should do, and what we do, there is one thing : ourselves, our flaws, our hopes, what makes us humans and living.
That said, you're really interesting to read, thanks for your answers, and thanks to the others guys for your comments as well. n_n
@Anonymous 3:21 -> well, I think it depends. Look at Dongtae. He doesn't receive quests anymore. He's satisfied, he's happy. In his case, the DIC power was used well and arrived at a balance point. The problem lies in others, who want ever more, and maybe in X, who wants not to be bored anymore.
@Anon:
DeleteI see your point, and I agree it's a possible interpretation.
Then again, if that is what the author is aiming at, I must say that Baam is not supposed to be admired, he is supposed to be pitied.
At least by this description he looks quite pitiful to me. Which is not necessarily a bad thing.
By the way, your example of the freed slave who goes back to their former master only puts Baam in an even worse light.
I can accept that.
@Aka kensei:
No problem, I am the one who must learn not to be so sensitive. I wasn't really harassed in the past, it's just that it's a bit exasperating to see people react with shock whenever I or someone else voices an interest in Rachel.
I haven't posted on Rachel elsewhere for a long time now, mainly because I think I have already said everything I have to say, at least until we learn more from the story. Nowadays, I post extensively at Mangahelpers as Kendama, but exclusively on DICE (and not only on Eunju, although she does occupy quite a substantial part of my comments).
@other Anonymous:
I agree, the fact that she realised the true nature of Dice from the very beginning is one of the things that I most admire about Eunju.
By the way, I don't look down on Baam. I did say he, Headon and Rachel and the mystery around them are the only things that interest me in ToG. I am merely pointing out that I find her more interesting.
DeleteBaam's eternal chase after her doesn't appeal to me that much. It's a matter of taste. I can understand why some people like it, but I am not one of them.
I don't think he is chasing after her on a whim, but he has gone through enough extreme situations to start healing that wound. Time cures all. I believe that strongly. The problem is that he doesn't move a finger to heal. The only focus of his mind's eye is Rachel.
The lengths to which he goes to pursue her are impressive, but I like her better because she is forward looking.
In that sense, I really find Koon pitiful as well, his feelings of revenge are retrograde to the utmost. He can't be that serious about succeeding his father if he can make such a pointless detour just to destroy a girl who is no threat to him just to get back at her.
Finally, as I said before, Dan agreed to Koon's plan to destroy Rachel, so he became a legitimate target too. I wouldn't have minded if she had killed him, he had it coming. I am ready to forgive her outburst because she had been showing mercy to one of her would-be traitors. Incidentally, by calling her a traitor, Dan showed himself as an hipocrite. The stabbing was quite a light punishment, in my opinion.
About Dongtae… yeah, he used Dice well. He, Taebin and Mio are the exceptions that prove the rule as they did not go power-crazy.
DeleteHowever, I don't think Dongtae is morally in the same league as Eunju. Not by a long shot.
I have written extensively about that, but if there is one thing I can blame Dongtae fair and square for is his decision to accept X's pranks in the first stage of the series. Don't forget that Byungchul was bullied by Bowl-hair precisely because Dongtae fulfilled a quest by stealing his maths notes (chapter nine). That incident triggered everything that happened afterwards and in a sense, Taebin is right (chapter 23): this is all Dongtae's fault for accepting to be X's useful idiot.
It's easy to say "I didn't hurt anyone, the problem are the others", but Dongtae hasn't spent a single second reflecting about the inherent problems of Dice. The fact that he is not ambitious and is well-intentioned doesn't change the fact he benefited from a thing that causes death and destruction to most people. Even now he defends Dice and their existence. By the way, the main reason he has decided to give up on Eunju (something I applaud) seems to be her refusal to acknowledge Dice. In a sense, he has chosen Dice over her.
Fair enough, I can understand his train of thought. I hope he doesn't have to suffer because of that but if he does, I hope he at least accepts the consequences of his decisions, like Eunju does.
However, I like him. After Eunju, he is my favourite character. I like his peculiar combination of weakness and strength, and his continuous contradictions.
My favourite of his contradictions is that, although he is grateful to Dice for being reborn, he hid his Dicership from Eunju and when she received Dice, he asked "Eunju, you can't be serious about becoming a Dicer?"
Poor fool… if Dice are that wonderful in his opinion, why was he ashamed of admiting to being a Dicer before her and why did he think it shocking that Eunju might become one? What's the message here, "I like Dice for myself but don't want Eunju to be corrupted by them"?
@anon 3:56
Deletesame here, i love baam character building, although he seems like the strongest guy mentally and (soon) physically, he's actually quite frail/empty inside, i kinda get the feeling of a lost child from him, as he doesn't have any ambitions(mostly) other than finding rachel, kinda feels like a child searching for his mother in an aspect, as you said, i like how the author really made him look "human".
and yeah, splicer's comments are interesting aren't they?
i usually search for someone saying "HOW CAN YOU LIKE EUNJU?!" in the comments and then splicer saying something around the lines "sigh... here we go again..." then continues in a 300 word essay, really interesting and fun to read
@splicer
for me i like the concept of "irreplaceable" and "never ending", it's quite beautiful, mostly because it's something that doesn't really exist, something unreachable for humans, but still humans try to reach it, but even if i do like it, my cup of tea is not everybody's.
as for koon, his character is still not "fledged out" imo, but i think the author is trying to imply that baam reached quite a place in his heart (not romantically), that it even rivals koon's ambitions in importance (and that's quite big since he comes from a royal family , and your career means everything in that kind of world)
anyway i like koon's personality (the loner, non-trusting, person that is actually quite loyal and a good person, but still uses force when necessary(most characters now days refuse to kill the enemy, which is annoying and repetitive)), i usually find my self rooting for those kind of characters quite often, he's the kind i like i suppose.
as for dan, true, he agreed on betraying her before she betrayed him, and so it's hard to judge her for that, but still dan didn't deserve what she did, as he still didn't betray her, and she destroyed everything he has (his speed) because he didn't agree to help her, which kind of indicates she's kinda of psychotic or likes to dominate with power,
also she didn't have to do that, because even if she left him there without doing anything to him, it wouldn't really matter, she just hurt him more on a "whim" than defending her self,
even so, the ToG world morality isn't very defined, and other people in the tower killed others for much less reasons, so seeing her as the villain because of what she did is not very possible, still i felt bad for dan, as he wasn't a bad person to begin with and the deal with koon's revenge didn't have much to do with him >.>
as for dongate, i think the author intended for him to be something around the lines of "someone who isn't and doesn't do evil, but still looks away for his own benefit" (aka he uses dice as you pointed out,but still he doesn't want eunju to use dice, because he already knows of the things that come beside the benefits)
i find that quite interesting, and i want to find out how that plays out (although i don't think it's going to end with anything but "i accept my self without dice", although it's a good thing, i still want a twist in his personality (maybe get actually corrupted by dice, possibly because of the fear of losing them)
even so tbh, i don't have a favorite character in DICE, as non of them hits my vibe (as i said, my usual favorite is the "loner/depressed character, who has a good heart but still can take hard decisions (think Rossiu Adai from Gurren Lagann) kind of character"
sorry for the.. wall of text... again -.-
oh i also forgot to say
Deleteas for koon i think why he cares so much for baam (he wants to get revenge on rachel even if it's actually pointless and very resource-taking) is because, baam is the first "real" person in koon's life, the first honest person, and possibly the first person to treat him not based on his family but him as a person, which "hit home" for koon i think
aside from the alligator though, which i quite like btw, he's the "big brother" of the group, and the simple minded guy that always knows what's right and what to do, really fits in the circle around baam and koon
Actually, Rachel's outburst didn't happen when Dan refused to help her. If you read the chapter again, she lost it when he accused her of being a traitor. Well, if in Koon's opinion betrayal deserves death, in Rachel's a false accusation (in her view) combined with hipocrisy deserve a good stabbing. I still see no matter. And sincerely, I don't think she betrayed him or Koon, because she had legitimate cause for striking them down. One cannot betray someone towards whom one has no loyalty.
DeleteKoon's motivations for revenge changed. I could kinda understand it if he were still after her solely because of Baam, but he has admitted that he will have revenge on her for what she did to him, and won't let even Baam stand on his way. In other words, this has no longer anything to do with Baam: it is petty revenge for something it's Koon's own fault in the first place. I could understand it if it were just a matter of sending some hitmen to kill Rachel, but he is actually risking his primary goals to pursue her. Nonsense, in my opinion.
As for DICE, I actually like the concepts of "irreplaceable" and "forever" in fiction, but only when they are individual journeys. When other people are jeopardised, I am not so happy with the character doing it.
Still, I admired, in the beginning, Dongtae's "irreplaceable", unconditional love for Eunju. Now that he has grown up out of it, I feel that Mio is the perfect match for him and I fully agree that what he felt for Eunju wasn't really love. That's part of the reason why I said earlier that I don't think he is worthy of her (yet, at least). I think this series is more down-to-earth than ToG, in that it does not romanticise things much.
rachel outburst-ed when he called her a traitor? i really have to read that chapter again, because this puts her in a much new light for me.
Deletei think i need a reread, i seem to have missed a lot of points that are important in understanding their character, although for koon, now i think it's more around the line of "pride", he's around the lines "how dare she do that!", as he is royal and mostly has a lot of pride,
and sorry for not being clear, i meant "irreplaceable" and "forever" as in how baam chases after rachel, and as in how rachel is "irreplaceable" for him and he wants to stay with her "forever", it may not be as happy as the usual "irreplaceable" concepts in other fiction, but still i feel it's interesting and im waiting to see how that goes (as you said before about their re-encounter, although it may be "perfect" to meet each other after becoming rankers, but for me i do not find that very interesting)
tbh i want baam to go kind of "mad" for chasing rachel, but that's more of a personal want, as good characters that go "dark" interest me heh
as for dongtae's love for eunju, tbh i didnt like it much from the start, and i felt it was kind of shallow. as in, if mio (before using dice) was the one who smiled or tried to help him, im pretty sure he wouldn't have fallen in love or admired her.
so im thankful it didn't turn out to be love, as that would make me much less interested in dongtae.
either way i do think mio is the perfect match for him, they share very similar conditions, and i like their match up anyway, i find it cute
yeah, DICE is more down to earth (well ToG is in a tower after all~~).
although the author hinted it a long time ago, that eunju X dongtae won't happen,
because eunju is in love with taebin, actually in love not just "like",
teabin already knows her past and all but is still with her, meaning he loves her enough for that to not matter(not sure though, my memory is foggy),
and lastly, teabin is not a bad guy, fictions usually use the "the one the heroin is in love with turned out to be a bad guy, so the main character X heroin coupling can happen now" kind of path, either way i think eunju X teabin is very fitting
ToG goes with the usual "shounen" formula(aka 90% of female characters have feeling for the mc and he doesn't return any of them and is dense enough to not notice any of them, aka "harem"), which tbh i find kind of degrading and not interesting, and well, just a stupid way to get more viewers >.>
i prefer quality over stupid developments that are just there for "fan service",
Rachel lost her composure when Dan said "after all, you kicked two friends with those legs of yours, didn't you?".
DeleteAs for Koon, I agree with you, it's probably nobility pride, and as I really despise that emotion, I despise his character by extension.
Back to Dongtae, I don't rule out the possibility that he will fall in love again for her, this time for better reasons. Right now, Mio makes more sense, though. Then again, if you think it was shallow in the beginning because Eunju was pretty, isn't it shallow now that Mio is pretty, too? (This is a devil's advocate question, I have a more elaborate take on Dongtae's emotions.)
As for Eunju, I don't think we can infer from the story that he "knows her past" and "is still with her". He actually put an end to their relationship on chapter 67 and in a very nasty way, too. I consider him a damaged personality, but won't elaborate because I have already written at length about it at Mangahelpers. Whether he can even feel real love is open to discussion, in my opinion. He is the most disliked character by readers after Eunju and Mooyoung, but I quite pity him.
May I know where you are reading Tower of God? The layout isn't the best where I was previously reading it. Thanks!
Deletethat's actually quite interesting for rachel to get angry when he said that, it could be she simply got angry for -basically- calling her a traitor while he planed to betray her, or it could be she felt remorse/guilt when he mentioned baam, and that guilt turned into anger.
Deletesame here for nobility pride, i despise this emotion, although i still don't despise koon because pride wasn't the only thing he showed in the series.
for dongtae, yeah we can't rule out the possibility, but if the author does, i hope it won't be cliche,
i think dongtae falling in love with eunju before using dice is shallow because he was(or he felt he was) on a lower level than eunju, and saw her as an unreachable "flower", and people see what they can't reach as something way more amazing that it is,
he now realized that his feeling aren't love (or at least most of them), and that happened only when he felt he reached a similar level as her's.
for mio, i think if he really fell in love with her, it wouldn't be shallow, because they always were (or felt they were) on the same level, they also share a similar past and similar ambitions and fears,
could be wrong though, as i said before, i like loner/depressed characters with a good heart, and mio to some extent reaches that criteria, so my judgment could be swayed by my like for mio's character.
i agree on him being a damaged personality, as he lost his first friends, in quite a gruesome way, plus in the peek of his happiness, and i think he's now afraid, maybe from losing important people again, or generally just afraid.
i don't think he's an "evil" character, but as i stated before i think he's just afraid.
as when he put an end to his relationship with eunju, i don't think we can rule out the possibility of him afraid of losing her if she knew the truth about him(so he just couldn't take the pressure anymore and ended it), or just want her to be away from dice and the damage that comes with it, and him in the process.
and same here, i pity him more than i dislike his actions.
I read ToG on LINE webtoons, the official Naver site in English.
DeleteI don't normally ponder the nature of love too much, even in fiction, because I think almost any feeling can give rise to love. Especially in a teenager experiencing these feelings for the first time, like Dongtae.
His admiration for Eunju could have turned into love if he had had a chance to confess to her.
His feelings for Mio can evolve into love, similarly, if Dongtae spends more time with her.
But I don't think if Mio were not a Dicer Dongtae would consider dating her. He is guided by looks, which is natural at his age and among human beings in general. Shallowness is not something determined by first impressions: Eunju is not shallow for feeling attracted to Taebin, she would be shallow if his good looks were the only thing that determined her attachment. But he clearly treated her with tenderness, care and attention, and they spent time together for weeks before she asked him out.
Love is not an outburst, it is a daily practice. I respected Dongtae's feelings for Eunju, although I thought they lacked definition. Similarly, I don't think what he feels for Mio right now qualifies as love, he is simply beginning to reciprocate her attentions. It's symptomatic that he decided what he felt for Eunju was not love AFTER his last disappointment (chapters 56-57). Until then, nothing in the world would have convinced him it wasn't love. But when he was disappointed, the feeling changed, and thus he found another explanation. But ex post facto explanations are poor rationalisations, and love is something felt, not explained.
Similarly, it's not impossible that he will decide "it is love, after all" in the future if he has an opportunity to spend time with Eunju again. And then he will find another explanation.
But I don't think this story will become that sophisticated in the romantic side. The final outcome will depend on several factors, not least the fact that Eunju is so hated that the author will feel some pressure not to pair her up with the protagonist. It will also depend on Mio's mental stability and how she deals with her insecurities. And of course, there's always the possibility that Eunju may finally become corrupted and/or meet a tragic end.
Right now, this seems to be moving towards "Mio with Dongtae, Eunju alone, Taebin dead", in my opinion.
true, almost any feeling can turn to love.
Deletetrue, if mio wasn't a dicer, dongtea would not see her as a possible partner, but that's humans, love is supposed to be for the person itself, without the looks, but that is mostly un-achievable by most humans.
i think there exists a somewhat of a plothole about how dongtae gave up on eunju, i think the author choose the path of "he admired but not loved her" instead of "he gave up on her and now searching for a new love" line, which is cliche but it makes the reader less sad/disappointed in dongtae.
i have a similar opinion on where this story is heading, but mostly i think taebin won't die, but he will lose his "looks" and probably at least 1 or more of the 5 senses.
still i think the show will end with a generally "happy ending", the author didn't give me the feeling of a sad ending so far.
ok, so wait... tnx for the advice
ReplyDeleteThese discussions about have given me new insight on the characters. Thanks Splicer for continually putting in the effort of responding. Since I haven't read any of the other comments you reference, I wouldn't have been able to receive this insight. Eunju's a good person and a good character. So I think what annoyed me the most was Dongtae's persistence for her up to this point, and I began directing my annoyance towards her. And I'll admit my biggest gripe is her opposition to the dice. Up to then I had really liked her. She seemed to be in denial about what was going on around her. I had wished that she would have found a way to work around the fact that people were using dice. (Give up the dice she had found for start). But now looking back there was much prejudice at her for being innately pretty and talented. So many of the events would have probably still existed and it would go against her beliefs. Thanks for all you've given me to chew on.
ReplyDeleteAs for Rachel, I really like her as a character, and your right; the morals in ToG are very loosely defined (I had always thought intentionally) so what she's doing might as well be 'good'. But the reason in relation to the ToG universe that she could be considered a villian is that she is in cooperation with FUG to achieve her goals. Which from the standpoint of the society is a 'bad' organization
Her opposition to Dice is what I have analysed the most. If I were to paste here, it would be walls and walls of text. But I can give a very synthetic version of my view:
Deletei. She is not against Dice themselves, she always qualifies her criticism by saying the problem is what people are driven to do to obtain them. Her enemy is X, not Dicers.
ii. When she says people should work hard with what they have been given, and they would not need ESP powers, this is actually in keeping with Taebin's view on chapter 67: with or without Dice, the world would be pretty much the same. The virtue is in hard work.
iii. It's possible to argue that Dice themselves are a pernicious thing. The gist of the argument is Lord Acton's famous saying: "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
A careful reading of chapters 19 (the conversation back from Byungchul's house, containing her notorious "I think people should live the way they are born", which is immediately qualified by her "I think we should work hard with what we have been given"), 23 (her famous "if that is true, I don't think these things should exist") and 34 (the rooftop speech) is essential to understand her stance on Dice.
She is not an hipocrite, or shallow, or a Luddite, much less naïve. If anything, she sees the whole picture that escapes all Dicers, even Dongtae, Taebin and Mio. But I'll stop here, for fear of repeating myself.
I have never found her to be hipocritical. She has been very consistent with her beliefs.Those two quotes are where I believe that she is nieve. In the real world statistics proves that those who are more attractive, more talented etc do better in life. I find her too idealistic. But I'll pretend that in the context of this world anyone can "work hard with what they have" and be able to achieve success. To say that people should live like they were born when they have an option to change them self for the better is selfish in my belief.
ReplyDeleteBut you say she is not against the dice it self but the means people attain the dice. Which if she is not against the dice why does she hold the belief that people "should live the way they were born"?
I'm perfectly fine with her being against X and his motives and the means people attain the dice. I just think there is an inconsistency in her own motivation.
Sorry, but I cannot give a full answer… because I have discussed all of that already. Please refer to my comments as Kendama at Mangahelpers. However, it is quite a long reading, I'm afraid.
DeleteI can give you this snippet, though: she is absolutely consistent. The remark about people living the way they were born is from before she knew of Dice. So she was speaking of life in general.
I may also remark that "working hard" is also a way of changing oneself for the better. Statistics only indicate a trend for success, they are not a sentence of failure or success. Actually, personal effort, when factored in these same statistics, normally outweighs natural talents. So she is not being selfish, she is saying that one should make the most of what one has. Which, by the way, is what we know she has been doing all this time: Eunju is always seen practising her singing, studying and working hard through life.
The naïve ones, in my opinion, are those who think they can take a shortcut (i.e. Dice) to happiness. Then again, I have also argued all of this extensively.
I took the time to read the referenced posts. And extensive they are.You have done a very thorough explanation behind your views and a break down on the perspectives of the characters. You used some nice analogies for points. After reading your posts I've come to take a new look at the series. I now feel like I was reading the series too passively (shame on me). I'm really glad that I had read this comment section and that you have taken your time to persistently address this topic.
DeleteDuring my readings you had mentioned you had posted on batato and elsewhere. I'm interested in reading as much as you've had to say on this topic because I find your analyzations very well thought out and informable. You seem to be a very well read person and I love the references you have made to other material.
DeleteIn addition, do you have chapter by chapter anylisis for the earlier chapters like you do on mangahelper? Your ability to for tell events is astounding. And ive had a very enjoyable time reading through your writing.
I am flattered. Thank you very much for your interest. Here are a few answers to your questions:
Deletei. I commented on Batoto before I moved to Mangahelpers, so my comments there are older. They are also made as Kendama and are in the comment section below the list of chapters, not in the forums. In them, I covered mainly the issue of why I don't think Eunju is an hypocrite (to an extent that, when I arrived at Mangahelpers, I announced I wasn't willing to discuss the topic any further). Some of my arguments appear for the first time there.
ii. I'm afraid I wasn't doing a chapter by chapter analysis until I arrived at Mangahelpers. My interest in the series grew progressively until I realised what the author seemed to be trying to do - a discussion on morality and choice well hidden by a shounen plot. I only became obsessive at that point.
If you really want to know how far the discussion has gone, if you haven't done it yet, you may wish to read my interlocutors' comments at Mangahelpers, especially Syx and Jammin. Jammin, for example, was the first one to articulate the notion that Dice change who you are.
Here at Dicescans, I have detailed discussions on the posts for chapters 72 and 81.
Basically, I love Mangahelper and Dicescans because the discussion in these places is civilised. I abandoned Batoto, as you probably know from having read about it at Mangahelpers, because I was disgusted at the vitriol being poured out there.
I think there is a semi-conscious reason why I do this, other than the fact that I really believe the series is interesting enough to warrant such a discussion.
I am really worried at the reasons WHY people hate Eunju that much.
Some of these people may have just not given themselves the trouble of reflecting upon the structure of the series. This is perfectly understandable, as not everyone thinks about a webtoon as if it were a classical novel or something.
However, I'm afraid people who will hate Eunju no matter what are… well, essentially people who are thrilled by the idea of Dice and would love if something like that existed. In other words, people who would be easy prey for X and devolve into moral monsters like Miju and Sungchul.
They do exist in real life, people who will buy any sort of miracle solution or nostrum and use it acritically.
I am just scared at the prospect that they may be the majority. My heart sinks when I look at the Eunju hater number at the poll to the right in this page. If that is the case, the author of this series has managed to unearth a very disturbing picture of human nature… not a surprising one, though.
Jin said above that she would probably use the Dice. I am a little sad to admit I probably would as well. At least I like to think I would be more like Dongtae, Mio and Taebin, who may use Dice but respect Eunju for not doing it and resist the allure of power.
In that sense, I am glad someone can read my views on Eunju and see her differently. It indicates my fears may be unfounded.
Due to batoto search system being bad it took me some time to reach your comments. I went page by page starting at the end. So to save the time of anyone who also wishes to read up Splicer starts posting on page 17 (well for now, as new posts are added the number will increase).
DeleteI chuckled at the end of your first comment. "Sorry, I'm just bored.) The interesting aspect of that remark is that I've both heard and read how boredom is actually good for people. Being bored allows us to absorb and contemplate the world around us and the media we consume. I wish that I would have time again to be bored but so many things are vying for attention its hard to just stop. This ties into what I said before about having read the series too passively. Coming from my "unenlightened" past I can salt see why so many people are haters of Eunju. Perhaps the author did reveal the ugly side of humans not only through the characters but the audience itself. I wonder if the proportions of moral people in the story can be proportionated... Which is indeed a scary thought.
Reading the discussings and pausing to consider Dice as more than just an entertaining story has been a rewarding experience for me. Reading through the conversations reminds me of my high school literature classes. I feel as though you could have been one of my teachers (whom I all hold in high esteem). The literary references always excite me since it was stuff I had studied. Perhaps I'll become an active participant for future discussions.
Haha look at this rant; I'm embarrassed ^^
Now to have this not be competly off topic. I present a the situation where a person's favorite character is X. Since I haven't had the opportunity to read through the hundreds of comments on Batoto, perhaps this has already been addressed. I'm just surprised at how highly popular he is. And am wondering if other people's reasons are similar to mine.
Well, this situation is actually a reality, as X is the second most-liked character according to the poll here.
DeleteBut I don't think it is a mystery.
Some people like villains in fiction. I am one of them, as you know from reading my comments on Rachel. X is a monster, but he is funny, clever and calculating, as well as a major troll. So I think most people like him because he is interesting.
I admire his character construction, but I voted for him as my most hated character, although, in retrospect, maybe Mooyoung irks me more. However, I don't think the fact that many people like him disturbs me nearly as much as the widespread hatred for Eunju.
There may be a subset of his admirers who have bought into the nonsense that he is not evil, is an amoral, even neutral agent and the Dicers have only themselves to blame for the consequences of their actions. However, I suspect these people are in the minority, most of those who like him are probably only entertained by his thought process and behaviour. So am I, to be honest. He is highly effective as a villain, and I respect that. It's like reading Iago in Othello, we hate his guts but cannot fail to laugh a little when he is on the stage. One of the things that make DICE a great series is X, undoubtedly.
Heyyy there's new updates of dice
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